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Nissan Primera P12 1.8 Engine Start Problems

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Forum Name: Nissan Primera Help & Queries
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URL: http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44398
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 7:48pm


Topic: Nissan Primera P12 1.8 Engine Start Problems
Posted By: MattC
Subject: Nissan Primera P12 1.8 Engine Start Problems
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2010 at 4:12pm
Nissan Primera P12 1.8 SVE Petrol

Hi Guys,

This problem has been annoying me immensely for the past few weeks, I have searched these forums considerably, and have read and tried a number of things as far as I can, but with no luck. There are a few things I know I need to try, but was hoping to seek a little more guidance from yourselves.

I have had the car for a few months, and when buying it private, no problem at all. I had it serviced fully by a mechanic friend, and he did a thorough job, changed everything. I then had 2 new front tyres on, new discs and pads at front, braking system drained and refilled, PAS fluid drained and refilled. I'm trying to get this to last a good 5 years!!

Then the problem started.

First it would start, and then cut out. Sounded like it was choking, a lack of air, and would just die. Try to start it, and maybe it would happen again. By holding accelerate, and making it rev up, I could keep it alive. As soon as I moved off, it would stay on and wouldn't cut out. All good!

Now it's gotten a little worse, and has been like this for a few weeks. It won't even start up. The car repair man says it's all okay from a mechanical point of view, but he doesn't have OBD equip to test electronics so he's left it at that. He has suggested the EGR Valve, which I have done a lot of searching on, on these forums. I have also looked at the Elec. Serv. Manual, but that hasn't helped a great deal.

Sometimes it starts okay first time, and as long as I move off quickly, no problem.

Today, it just wasn't starting, even if I tried it 20 times. So I got 2 friends to push it reverse off the drive, and as they pushed, and I started the engine, it kicked in perfectly, and stayed on. We drove off, and no problems. It doesn't cut out at the lights, it idles perfectly without being erratic, at 800 or so RPM. At startup from cold when I do get it going, it sits at 1500, but this settles down after a little bit, and is fine, all as expected.

This is what I have tried:

1. Reprogram Keys (although this is just a door opening function, so I doubted it would be this, but did it anyway.
2. Clean Battery Terminals (again, probably not an issue, but I tried my best).
3. Check Air Filter is clean / in correct (this was serviced, but checked it anyway).

I look at it, I suppose it's not a lot ha! But I am trying my best to research and do what I have been able to find on the forum.

Now my research here tells me I should be doing these things, but have been unable to because of my lack of experience / knowledge where to find:

1. Check / Clean (a sticky?) EGR Valve (but I don't know where it is, does it even exist in the Petrol engine, all EGR related threads are for diesel I have noticed). Any pictures as to where it is in the Petrol, and what to do?

2. Check Earth cables from Negative Battery Terminal. This looks alright, I see JUST ONE cable from Battery Negative Terminal, to the Engine Block (I think it's the engine block?!?!). I have heard there should be more earth cables throughout the car, but I have no idea where to find them without pictures. Any pointers here please?

On one note, I can see no cable going anywhere else from the bolt that holds that yellow and black cable running from negative terminal to the bolt. From threads here, I am expecting perhaps another one?

3. Clean the MAF perhaps, but I have no idea how to find this and what to use?

====================================================

Just to say:

No warning lights on the dash coming on (except when it starts, indicating the lights ARE working / plugged in, and not been unplugged for a quick fix!!!).

Lots of (sometimes strong) static shocks from passengers that touch body work as they get out, possibly telling me the car earthing isn't working as it should / broken somewhere?

====================================================

And a few other little problems (but are less a priority for me right now). If you wanna throw anything at me about this, please!! :)

1. Low Engine Coolant Level, just past the MIN line - I heard that mixing 2 types is bad, so topping up with anything is no good right? It's a red colour, can I just go buy a red one from local car place and fill it, or no?
2. Knocking Sound when going over bumpy roads from back. I searched around a lot on the forum for this, and found things. AntiRoll bar snapped / links broken / warn bushes? How can I get to these parts to replace? Is it something to crank the car up on my wheel replacement jack, and pull off the cover on the bottom?

Massive post guys, hope it's not too much!

Cheers,
Matt.



Replies:
Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 10:09am
Hi Matt,

I souds like mine, I'll had this problem for 2-3 years. Nissan, The AA nor my local garge could fine a fault nor was a fault being registered in the system. Mine wouldn't start for approx 15 mins after i'd taken a journey of over 1 mile, a longer journey maybe it would take 1 hour.

This week the time it takes to start the car and suddenly jumped to 1-2 hours or we have to jump it similarily to how you do. The big difference being we now have a code for an error! The ironic thing is, there is loads posted about Nissan and Crank Angle Sensors, but my local nissan garage says there isn't an issue with my model ... I'm not convinced!!

So i'm off to search an old one before stumping up £400+ just to see if it works!
 






Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 10:15am
Thanks for the response AGrice!

At least it's not just me. I am working on the vehicle right now, first have to jump start the car. We'll see what happens. I am going to do a lot of the diagnostics given in the ESM. As soon as I find a fix, I'll post it here!!! (if I do!)

My battery is dead from all the attempted starts.

As for the Crank Angle sensors, I've no idea where to start, but I know there was a vehicle recall that would fix 'stalling vehicles' and was related to some sort of sensor angles. Mine has had this fix done though. I bet yours probably has too.

My fuel is rather low at the moment actually, advertising 36 miles in the tank on screen (i don't think this is accurate though). If there is gunk in the tank, can that affect startup if bad fuel or not so clean fuel is getting through?

Cheers again,
Matt.

PS. What is that fault code of yours?


Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 10:18am
Mine hasn't had the crank angle sensor fixed, the local nissan garage says mine wasn't part of the recall, but VOSA says it was..

Anyway, the error being registered is crank angle sensor



Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 10:25am
Thanks for that.

Have you had a look at the earthing of the vehicle? I am wanting to check mine, but hoping for some help from some of the experienced guys here. If you've had a look at this too, can you advise?

Cheers,
Matt.


Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 10:29am
I mentioned it to the nissan garage and local garage, they say they have checked it.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 11:24am
Thanks mate!

Does anyone know that if a pump has failed / is failing, will it be a problem at STARTUP only, or would we see signs all around, during driving, sitting at lights etc? It might help me to rule out Fuel Pump problem.

Thanks.


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 11:37am
Hi, sorry to here the two of you are suffering the same problem, I have the diesel version so am of limited help apart from i have read most of the posts on here so maybe able to point you in the right direction.
 
What I can say is that some of you symptoms have been posted up on here, not heard to much about crank angle sensors. Static shocks is not a common one and may be a clue to what is going on.
 
1st off we have an excellent 'How to section' in the general area here are some links for the MAF
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/maf-afm-cleaning-sr20_topic5640.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/maf-afm-cleaning-sr20_topic5640.html
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/maf-cleaning-ga16de_topic5696.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/maf-cleaning-ga16de_topic5696.html
Be aware you will have two the other is on the exhaust side.
 
Next the earthing problem
try this first but in your case probably less likely
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/p12-rear-light-removal-now-with-simple-earth-fix_topic16533.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/p12-rear-light-removal-now-with-simple-earth-fix_topic16533.html
As for earth straps there are I understand at least two critical ones one to the side of the engine and one to the underside of the gearbox, both can cause problems and the may be snapped, they may look ok but are no longer attached properly and giving poor connection. I have done a quick search on here and can't find what I know is on here and that is someone has replaced all them and had some pretty good piccies. You may have to take the engine under-tray off.
 
 
Also have a look here
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/primera-maintenance-trouble-shooting_topic3269.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/primera-maintenance-trouble-shooting_topic3269.html
 
Finally for now download the free electronic service manual from this site, the link commence at the top of the general section.
 
 
*************Edit*********
Another link
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/complete-luddite_topic43114_post580004.html?KW=earth+strap#580004 - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/complete-luddite_topic43114_post580004.html?KW=earth+strap#580004
 
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/nissan-primera-p12-owners-earth-straps_topic23034_page3.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/nissan-primera-p12-owners-earth-straps_topic23034_page3.html
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/nissan-primera-p12-cold-start-problem_topic24370_post345106.html#345106 - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/nissan-primera-p12-cold-start-problem_topic24370_post345106.html#345106
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/just-bought-grounding-kit-now-fitted_topic21099_post319045.html#319045 - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/just-bought-grounding-kit-now-fitted_topic21099_post319045.html#319045


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 12:12pm
Fuel is the next place I would be looking and the suction control valve on the petrol pump may be on its way.. now there are loads of recent posts on here regarding SVC's so  little search will uncover all thoseThumbs Up


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 12:22pm
Be careful with the MAF. It is a hot film type and can be damaged by cleaning.
Try the car with the MAF unplugged. It probably won't drive very well but it should start.
 
Might be worth trying the Accelerator Pedal and Throttle Valve Closed Learning.
In the Service Manual Engine, Engine Control, Page EC-55.


Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 1:53pm
I managed to borrow a new MAF it made no difference, i've just got my hands on a crank angle sensor (25 + carriage and VAT).. i'll let you know how i fair when it's installed..


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 2:02pm
Thanks for all the input guys.

I think I may have narrowed it down to the Fuel Pump / some connection there. I am looking for the Fuel Pump Relay, according to the ESM, but can't find it. Any pointers for my Right Hand Drive. How hard is it to get to?

About to go try EC-55 - Learning Positions thing from ESM. Thanks for all input, Timeshock, IMCKAY, and AGrice of course!


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 8:27pm
Anything with that new Crank Angle Sensor mate?


Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2010 at 9:42am
I paid to it to be sent, then 4 hours later got a phone call to say the one they had was broken.. So i'm on the search again..


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2010 at 9:10am
So I did the diagnostics in the manual, I can not actually feel a pulse along the fuel line when I switch car to 'On'. I think I am squeezing the right one. I then checked the Relay, and it's getting 12 volts through to that. The checks beyond that, I have no idea how to do really.

Pointers?

Cheers,
Matt.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 3:23pm
Can anyone confirm if there is an earth cable on the Primera P12 Petrol that runs to the gearbox? I can see where battery negative terminal joins to the body work, and also to the engine block, but no where else beyond that.

Thanks guys,
Matt.


Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 6:34pm
Matt

I thought i'd just let yu know spent 180 on new crank engine sensors and it appears to have worked.. i've yet to take the car on a very long run but the error codes are gone and it starts on journeys it previously didn't...


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by MattC MattC wrote:

Can anyone confirm if there is an earth cable on the Primera P12 Petrol that runs to the gearbox? I can see where battery negative terminal joins to the body work, and also to the engine block, but no where else beyond that.

Thanks guys,
Matt.
If you have got the ESM download go to the electrical section pages 14 to 33 where there are picture of all the grounding harness'


Posted By: renrut
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by MattC MattC wrote:

So I did the diagnostics in the manual, I can not actually feel a pulse along the fuel line when I switch car to 'On'. I think I am squeezing the right one. I then checked the Relay, and it's getting 12 volts through to that. The checks beyond that, I have no idea how to do really.

Pointers?

Cheers,
Matt.


Looking at the troubleshooting matrix you're on the right tracks. Might be worth taking the fuel pump fuse out first, crank it a bit, then put it back in before trying it again as if the pressure in the line is already up you might not feel much.



-------------
Now enjoying wafty effortless power.


Posted By: Baz007
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 10:50pm
I've just read you PM....... I'll be back here to check if you rproblem is resoloved. If not, I'll give you some ideas.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 12:14am
Thanks for all your help guys.

Renrut has been giving me a few pointers in PM, will post these out soon for you guys.

AGrice - interesting about those sensors. Thing is, I'm not getting any lights on my dash telling me ECU has errors. I have reset it (negative was off for a bit, so not intentionally), but there were never any dash warning lights anyway. Did you have any indicators there were errors on dash, or were they known because of a diagnostic?

Thanks again all!

Regards,
Matt.


Posted By: essNchill
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 12:48am
As earth straps have been mentioned (and apologies if anyone has posted these links already)..
 
Here's some additional info from here on earth straps and associated probs:
 
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/topic22024_page1.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/topic22024_page1.html
 
http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/nissan-primera-p12-owners-earth-straps_topic23034_page1.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/nissan-primera-p12-owners-earth-straps_topic23034_page1.html
 
PS - I'm not saying it's earth related (I'm no tech etc).. Just throwing them in for anyone who may stumble across this thread in the futureThumbs Up
 
Good luck anyways Matt.
 
Take care,
Shaun


-------------


Posted By: AGrice
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2010 at 4:50pm
Hi Matt,

Just to re-iterate - the garage could only diagnose the issue once the fault displayed on the dash.. I've had the issue of the car not starting, stalling for 3-4 years and not a single fault showing... Even though it's been into a nissan garage for diagnosis (It didn't start there and they couldn't find anything) the same with the AA.. It was my local backstreet garage that suggest the sensors but he quoted 300 for parts plus labour and vat and couldnt guarantee change of sensors would fix the issue...

The error finally displaying confirmed the local garages thoughts.... £180 all done..



Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2010 at 7:57pm
Hi guys,

Sorry to be replying so late, had a whole lot of other things that have taken up my time!!

Well, I managed to get a friend to hook it up to the OBD port, and read out any codes, and he came back with the P1612, and nothing else. NATS problem!!! I've had the equipment owner, my mechanical friend, and others tell me that it's the immobilizer / the coil around the ignition barrel stopping the immobilizer disarming itself. It seems intermittent, sometimes it will communicate the code alright, other times not. When it doesn't, it won't fire. When by chance the code communicated ok, it fires.

As for the engine hovering at 400rpm sometimes, and then cutting out, I think this is down to the fact I have disconnected the battery, and the car needs to re-learn it's throttle idle position. Maybe I am wrong?

I get the feeling that the Crank Shaft Pos. Sensors are not to blame, as the car runs ever so smooth, and I would expect lumpy driving and juddering. Anyone correct me if I am wrong please!!!

So mechanics have said the coil around the barrel is intermittently failing. Anyone know the cost of this part, is it easily available, and is it easily interchangeable without any ECU or IMMU reprogramming?

This is quite a brief post as I've gotta run for now, I haven't written all I wanted to. But thanks again everyone for help so far. I haven't ignored all your suggestions, I will definitely get to them!

Cheers!
Matt.


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2010 at 6:35pm
Hi MattC,
Intermittent faults are always a buggerUnhappySo i am taking it at face value that P1612 is a nats fault and again the advice that it could the coil around the barrel, I can't really advise whether this IS the problem or not, only these same symptoms could be caused by the earth cable problems mentioned. So if you have definitely exhausted that avenue then the barrel could be next. Don't know how much or if it needs programming.
 
Having re-read this post it would seem you MAY have two ongoing problems the throttle learning is very easy to do and is explained in the ESM, cheap and easy see how you get on with that. If that does not work the SVC is still likely.
 
And just to make doubly sure did you clean the earth on the rear light cluster socket?


Posted By: ciaranh
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2010 at 7:07pm
Hi Matt

I had a similer problem on my old car (daewoo matiz) worst ever car that died after 63,000!

but it could be your distributor needs replaced or maybe your coil pack needs replaced.

or even better give your distributor a clean and try a start up.

hope this help you.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2010 at 8:14pm
Hey guys thanks for your responses!

I will double check this earthing thing one last time. I have taken one of the rear light clusters out, and it was clean. I thought that corrosion or residue build up on these indicated problems with that? Just to point remind you guys, I am on a Petrol, not a Diesel. The SVC is electrical in this (This is what I was told by Renrut I believe, but may be wrong), whereas the SVC is a more common failure point in the Diesel as it's Mechanical. Sorry if I sound silly!

How to clean the distributor, a quick Google rendered nothing for me?

Thanks again,
Matt.


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2010 at 8:37pm
If the connector is clean then that has eliminated that. No distributor so forget that. SVC yes that's diesel thing as far as i know but may be still a fuel problem, maybe one of the petrol heads on here can help.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2010 at 8:56pm
I'll double check them connectors on both headlights then timeshock!

I will do the relearn tomorrow. See how that goes down!

Thanks mate! And everyone else.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 2:21pm
I hope it doesn't look like post bumping...

I have managed to narrow it down even further now, if I can hear the fuel pump once I turn the key to ON, then it will definitely fire up (even if it cuts out again after). If I don't hear it, it definitely won't fire. Intermittent this is!

So it sounds like some error with the Fuel Pump somewhere? Perhaps a relay, or something. I have no idea though. Can I take the relay out, and put some wire across the female sockets' pins to help narrow the relay out of the problem?

Or maybe i've got it all wrong. Does the Fuel Pump not start until I turn to ignition?

Cheers,
Matt.


Posted By: renrut
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 9:12am
I would go back to looking at the NATs and immobiliser. If the NATS/immobiliser is confused it won't allow the fuel pump, injectors or sparks to fire.

If you can hear the pump then I'd guess that its working and its probably ok. Basically when you turn the key to ON, the fuel pump should prime. IIRC (check the manual) then it will prime every time you turn the key to ON unless it thinks there's a problem i.e. NATS. If the ODB agrees its NATS I'd be looking over that system.

There should be a fault finding procedure in the manual, I'll check tonight if I get chance and see what it says.




-------------
Now enjoying wafty effortless power.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 11:27am
Thanks renrut!

I took the amplifier off yesterday to see how it connects, and reconnected it. I examined it and physically looks all is in order. There is a diagnostics procedure in the ESM but I haven't thoroughly performed those yet. Thanks for guiding me back to the NATS though, it looks like NATS is stopping the pump from priming.

NATS problems means time to go to Nissan, right?

Cheers again,
Matt.


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by MattC MattC wrote:

I'll double check them connectors on both headlights then timeshock!

I will do the relearn tomorrow. See how that goes down!

Thanks mate! And everyone else.
Not he headlights, rear light cluster


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 7:44pm
Ahhh woops, wrong thing. I was planning to check the rear anyway, not the heads. Cheers though.

I am waiting for some dry weather, but the chances of that are quickly falling.


Posted By: whitegsd
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 12:15am
I had a very similar problem with my old Vauxhall Astra and I eventually traced it back to a bad earth wire from the ECU to the fuel pump relay.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:59am
Hi Everyone,

I managed to narrow the problem down by performing a diagnostics procedure in the ESM.

In section BL, pages 193 and 194, I followed procedure number 2. This is Chain of ECM-IMMU, related to P1612. Steps 1, 2, and 3 are okay. Step 4 is where I fail. There is no continuity. The solution - replace Harness, indicated by part C3 at the bottom of page 192. This is the ground / earth.

Any idea what exactly needs replacing / what I should check first? I feel I'm really getting somewhere now. Hope to knuckle this today!

Cheers guys.
Matt.


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:32pm

Are you measuring between pin 53 (black wire) on the cable and ground?

You will not get continuity if you are measuring between pin 53 on the SECU and ground with the cable unplugged.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:52pm
Well now I feel stupid! Ermm

That is what I did, the female socket, pin 53 to one terminal, and the other terminal to ground (I attached this to the door hinge).

What have I done wrong? What should I be doing? I've never done this before, but a quick Google led me to do this.

Cheers for reply.

Matt.


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:02pm
Sorry, my post wasn't clear.
 
If you are measuring between pin 53 (black wire) on the cable and ground this is correct. Ground is supplied through the cable to the SECU.
If you are not getting continuity from pin 53 of the cable to ground, then you have found a problem.
 
If you have unplugged the cable and are checking continuity from pin 53 on the SECU to ground, this is incorrect.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:12pm
Oh, I am definitely a newbie at this. Can you explain further please sorry? Just so I can be sure.

I disconnected the cable from the socket. In my hand I had a female connector. This had 16 little holes in it, where the components' 16 pins plug into. I stuck my ohm reader into that; one pin in HOLE 53 (not on the protruding pin), and attached the other terminal to the door hinge.

Is that right?

Thanks again mate
Matt.


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:23pm
No problem MattSmile
 
You should be checking continuity from the part that looks something like this to your door hinge.
 
Pic not from a Primera.
 
 


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:33pm
Hi Ian, cheers! :)

So yeah, I am connecting it to a cable like this - but not on the back side the arrow is pointing to, but rather on the other side whilst it is disconnected.

http://www.autoaudio.com.au/images/APP074.jpg - http://www.autoaudio.com.au/images/APP074.jpg ">

The above image, red connector, I am sticking my multimeter into that pins that we can see in that view. The black connector on the left is what I have been referring to as the male.

Harness connector M43 has been disconnected, and I have been measuring resistance at terminal 53.

I conclude - seems I have done it right? Thanks for making sure anyway. I'm assuming it's a poor connection or damaged harness for whatever reason.

I did see continuity when I first connected the  multimeter, but none at all now. I cannot replicate that, and work out why I got it. Jiggled the wires a little, nothing. So looks like the circuit is sometimes okay, sometimes it's broken.

Can't quite work out where this harness runs to, and how complex it will be to fix it. I hope it's fairly straight forward!!!

Thanks again everyone for input.

Regards,
Matt.


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:59pm
Glad we got that sortedThumbs Up
 
As it is the ground wire, you could join another wire onto the black one and run it to some metalwork.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 2:12pm
Sounds like a good idea - how do you suggest I go about this? Start cutting some wires?

If you can give me a little bit of an idea and some background info on this, I might be able to apply some common sense to it.

Pin 53 is the ground right? I understand the logic of just connecting pin 53 to some other metal to give it ground. But what about every other pin, if the one isn't getting proper connection, then won't every other pin be a problem too?

Thanks a lot.
Matt.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 3:02pm
Just wanted to clarify something. I checked the colour of the wires, and it's actually yellow I am trying to test continuity on. In the ESM, it shows a diagram.

I assumed that you look at the connectors face on once you have disconnected them. I disconnected it and looking at it face on, and looking at the colour that shoots at the back, it is a yellow. How ever, the cable next to it is black - if I look at backwards (ie. holes facing away from me), it is a black.

Bottom line, I am not sure which hole is terminal 53! Do colours ever vary, or is earth definitely black?

Let me know.
Cheers
Matt.


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 3:25pm

I doubt the whole cable is faulty.

The black wire is supposed to be connected to ground. From your testing it sounds like it isn't.
 
You could strip the insulation from the black wire with a sharp knife a couple of inches back from the connector to expose 5mm or so of the copper wire under the insulation.
Wrap another wire around the exposed copper wire and run this to some metalwork.
 


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 3:33pm
I will have a go at this, thanks Ian!

Still not sure which wire is my earth. Looking at cable with it's female connectors / holes facing me, and my interpretation of the diagram in the ESM as the same as this, 5th from left is meant to be earth. This has a yellow cable though. 4th from left is black, and seems to have continuity, but I am not sure, can't thoroughly test as bad weather at the moment.

Thanks for replies guys :)


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 3:52pm
The black wire that connects to pin 53 is the earth.
 
There is a wiring diagram on page BL-184


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 4:08pm
Hi all,

So I have managed to test continuity at pin 53, and it's all fine.

So according to the manual, I have a faulty IMMU (Smart Entrance Control Unit). Need a new one of those. If that doesn't fix it, then need to replace ECM.

Anything I can do / check from here before I go to Nissan?

Cheers,
Matt.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 11:11am
Hi guys, jumping around this problem quite a bit.

Since I noticed that when the fuel pump does not prime, it does not start, I started poking around at the fuel pump.

Now if I have done something stupid, tell me, and I apologise, and won't do it again...

I bridged the pins 3 and 5 that link when the relay kicks in, to get the fuel pump going. I heard the pump prime, and then disconnected the bridge. It kicked right in as soon as I started it, but soon after died. I did it again, but as it was about to cut out, I bridged the terminal again, and the car cut out was prevented, and stayed on.

So my though is that it is the relay. How ever, I haven't tested it yet as it needs 12 volts to check it. I think I will use the car battery, is that alright?

So I am thinking it is the fuel pump relay. How ever, if it is the ECM that controls the relays on/off, then it isn't as simple as that. The Service Manual states on page 536 (Section EC) that:

Quote "The ECM does not directly drive the fuel pump. It controls the ON/OFF fuel pump relay, which in turn controls the fuel pump."

What have I done guys? Have I made progress do you think? New relay a simple solution, or is that no good? Although I had that immobilizer fault code before, I don't think it's a problem and that code just happened to be stored. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

"feeling progress"

Cheers,
Matt.


Posted By: renrut
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 3:13pm
Well you've proven that the relay works and that when the fuel rail is primed it starts.

As your quote the ECM controls the fuel pump.

Now you could check the relay. I can't remember where it is but relays usually make a tiny 'click' noise when switching. Have your ear near it when someone turns the ign to ON then you should hear it click. Alternatively a current limited 12V source could be used on the relay outside the car to see if it changes.

TBH it sounds like you have a SECU problem and it needs replacing. Do a search on here, I'm sure plenty will show up. I recall seeing somewhere on here on how to fix it but I might have dreamt it. Might have to bite the bullet and have a new one Unhappy



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Now enjoying wafty effortless power.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 10:08pm
Hi renrut thanks for the reply.

I checked the relay, seems ok. I am going to try buy a new one though and try that as it seems the relay might be intermittent.

I've taken it on a few drives today. Going great. When it doesnt work, I pull the relay put, give it a little shake, jiggle the wires a little that the relay goes into, then put it back in. switch to on and then I can hear that fuel pump go and it starts great and stays on.

So the SECU. I'm not sure how this would be a problem? Unless that controls the power to the relay causing on/off of the pump, and that is the failure? I don't understand why a tap or the relay or a jiggle of the cables sorts it out. If its not the relay, then the terminal it plugs into?

Any reason why you think the SECU? If I understand the logic behind it then I seem to work on problems having understood the why'd and what makes you rule out other things.

Cheers again all.
Matt.


Posted By: renrut
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 9:32am
If the relay isn't faulty then the SECU is the bit that drives the relay. If you can get a meter on the input to the relay from the SECU and see what voltage you're getting when it works and when it doesn't work that would tell you if you're getting a signal from the SECU. If you're not its a SECU fault. If you are then its a sticky relay problem.

If thats not practical to test then get a new relay as they're not expensive. You'd have to be damned unlucky to get a faulty one.

If its a wire harness problem then buzz out from the SECU to the relay and also check to ground incase its shorting out.

Its been known for SECU units to go funny but I wouldn't have thought intermittent would be one of them.


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Now enjoying wafty effortless power.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 9:57am
If i understand correctly what you mean about getting a meter on the relay terminal side (the relays socket), I have done this, as the service manual guides you to. It gives me 12v ish, the voltage of the battery across terminal 3 and 5. See fuel pump in the manual for what i have done. When ever I test that, it gives me good readings, so I feel the secu is working in that respect. This jiggle the wires option however might mean when the relay is tucked away behind its box (just FYI, its underneath the plastic cover just under bonnet release switch) that the cabling has a bit of a break in it that is ok when jiggled.

Well due to pick up a new relay today. Nissan quoted 30.74. Expensive! Found a second hand for 15 though. Better but will it work? Ha.

What do you mean by buzz out sorry?

I did see how to repair a secu. It's a fix for an interior bulb though. Specifically a bad component on the board. Might be able to trace the bad component though relating to fuel pun relay control.

Cheers.
MC.


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 7:20pm
The fuel pump relay is controlled by the ECU.
 
See Service Manual - Engine, Engine Control, Page EC537


Posted By: FunkyGibbon
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2010 at 9:31pm
Hello all, so this is my first post and first reply all in one, recent cold weather has caused havoc with my Primera, one problem in particular is with the fuel pump not priming, the car run, i stopped to go in a shop, came out and it would not start, towed home, chaged battery, fitted next day, started first time, as the weather has become colder the lat couple of days when the fuel pump is priming, the motor (whiring sound) sounds slow and laboured before the clunk meaning the it's primed, so pump motor might be faulty? Relay as previously mentioned in this thread, i can definatly say no whiring noise no engine start, whiring clunk yes engine will start, it's -4 deg outside tonight, knuckles bruised and scraped from working on the water pump this weekend.
Nuff of that, glad i found this forum and in particular this thread, thanks for your indirect help

Shaun


Posted By: FunkyGibbon
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 10:48pm
So as an update to anyone else who has had this problem i've fixed it, all the electrics checked out and led to a problem with the pump itself, after removing the pump from the tank and putting power direct to it to find it was dead, grasping the neared hammer i gave it couple of taps and applied power and it worked, i've been running the pump on off for a couple of hours and it's still working, tomorow i'll refit it in the tank and hopefully it will still work, so the answer is if something doesn't work smack it with a hammer


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 6:56am
Hi guys, I haven't run without thanks for your help. I've been reading the site daily since my last visit, just haven't been logged in!

It seems that I have identified the problem - just an intermittent relay. AFTER ALL THAT TROUBLE! At least it wasn't more serious though.

It seems to fail when it is cold. What I have had to do (until I buy a new one), is leave the cover for the relay off (next to the accelerator pedal behind the plastic cover), and I have to remove the relay every time I am done with driving. I carry it in my pocket, or take it into the building with me to keep it warm and prevent it from becoming freezing cold. When I come back to the car, pop it in, pump primes and starts up straight away!

This has been confirmed to me yesterday. I forgot to take out the relay, left it sitting in the -1 temperature for about an hour and a half. Came back out and it wouldn't start. Quickly disconnected it, warmed it up in my hands for a few mins, plugged in, and started no problem.

I have thought of the possibility that the wiring to the relay could be bad, and that me 'jiggling' the wires as I attempt to re-insert the relay into it's socket fixes the circuit. I think that chance may be slim.

I did test the relay by connecting the power pins up to the car battery and testing if the electromagnet activated and completed the fuel pump circuit. Yes it did, but that was when the relay was inside and warm. My next test would be to do it in freezing cold temperatures to confirm it is broken when cold.

Then I might buy a new relay. Nissan have quoted £31 inclusive of VAT - so expensive for what it is. I need to get to a breakers yard but none have a P12 at the moment. I'll be waiting.

If anyone has any startup troubles, listen for the pump priming, if it isn't, check your pump fuse. If all in order, check that relay too. Bridge the female sockets the relay goes into (see ESM for which ones provide the power to the relay), switch car to ON, and listen for the pump priming.

There's my small contribution for those struggling with perhaps similar problems, and as a return to all the helpful people here on the forum :)

Cheers again guys!
Matt.


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 7:01am
Wow this thread got quite a number of views.

I forgot to ask - does anyone know if I could use an alternative relay? Are they the same in the P11 or P10, or can I use any other relay with the same pins and wiring?


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 9:38am
Glad you got the bottom of the problem Matt
 
Accordng to Nissan4U parts catalogue you have a wide choice of Nissans that use the same relay.
http://nissan4u.com/parts/info/252309F905/ - http://nissan4u.com/parts/info/252309F905/


Posted By: MattC
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2010 at 10:24am
Sorry for late reply guys.

All sorted. Purchased a relay from a P11 for a quid.

All fixed. Months later. Absolutely no problem anymore even in this negative 7 weather!

Cheers.
Matt.


Posted By: john d
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2011 at 2:34pm
to anyone
have a 2003 primera 1.8,have serious trouble getting it to start,engine management light was on,according to a mates computer camshaft sensor was problem,so fitted new crankshaft and new camshaft sensor,still have trouble
once car is running it runs as sweet as a nut,
is there anything that could be wrong that would make sensor come up again and again
hope someone can help
john


Posted By: timeshock!
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2011 at 9:05pm
stretched chain, does it rattle excessively on start up then go away?


Posted By: john d
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2011 at 10:39pm
hi thanks
no there is no rattle at all,
i'm really bambozled,once it starts,which can take half an hour or so,it then runs perfect,doesn't judder miss or anything.
dont know some one said new timing chain,sounds damned expensive job to me.
thanks
jd


Posted By: essNchill
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 12:20am
Just thought I'd throw it into the pot, have you checked your earth straps are all OK? This is a known problem on ALL P12 models and can cause starting problems specifically.

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Posted By: john d
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 7:44am
thanks 
any paticular place where the earth strap is,there is however plenty of power to battery,
all info much appreciated
jd


Posted By: Ant-Dat
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 8:02am

the earth lead usually breaks between the gearbox and body,

Quickest way to check is to grab a good heavy duty jump lead(got to be a good lead or it won;t work). Put it on on earth of the battery and then onto the engine (metal) then turn the key. If it starts trouble free then you have an earth issue



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SB "he isn't human, he is a machine that never falter


Posted By: john d
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 8:42am
hi all
tried the method to find reset ecu but it did not work,i assume switched on means with all ignition lights on.
kept trying but to no avail,any ideas on how to get this to work as have to fit camshaft and crankshaft sensor together as apparently computer can not tell otherwise if it has been done
thanks
jd


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 9:19am
Are you following this? http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/p12-all-engines-read-reset-ecu-fuel-pump_topic54932.html - http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/p12-all-engines-read-reset-ecu-fuel-pump_topic54932.html
 
If it will not reset, then the detected problem has not been corrected. Strange if it is crank/cam sensors as this would not be detected until the engine is being turned over.
 
Count the long and short flashes to confirm the error code(s)


Posted By: john d
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 5:23pm
many thanks
yes it was this i folllowed but it did not work,no lights flashed,no codes came up or anything,
have tried it again but still nothing,does that mean there is a problem with the ecu?
thanks
jd


Posted By: imckay
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2011 at 11:35pm
The manual suggests using a clock or watch to time the pedal presses.
 
If still no luck, OBD2 code readers are available on ebay from £20. Or a USB cable and software to plug into a laptop.



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