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Nissan Primera P11-144 misfire & loss of power

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Forum Name: Nissan Primera Help & Queries
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URL: http://www.npoc.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57103
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 12:18pm


Topic: Nissan Primera P11-144 misfire & loss of power
Posted By: Neilski
Subject: Nissan Primera P11-144 misfire & loss of power
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 10:54pm
Hoping someone recognises these symptoms and that the fix isn't horribly expensive...

For several months now, our P11-144 (GQ16DE) has been misbehaving. First, we noticed an intermittent-ish loss of power when opening it up at speed, but idling seemed OK. It's getting worse though, with "jumpiness" now getting to the point where we actually have to back off the throttle sometimes when what I can only call bucking gets quite severe. Idling is now a little uneven too.
At an early point in the process, I noticed that the tacho needle wasn't holding steady at idle (or indeed at steady higher RPM) even when there was no detectable unevenness in the engine vibration (I'd have expected to feel a misfire very clearly). It was repeatedly jumping down a little and then recovering after a moment.

The car has flagged a couple of diagnostic codes so far - mostly 300 (generic misfire) with one or two 335 (crankshaft pos). The 335 actually first showed up quite a while after I had first noticed the tacho needle wobble, which had caused me to go looking at the POS pin on the ECU with an oscilloscope but it looked fine (and still does). Argh.

I've been browsing this website (for ages!) today looking for ideas and noticed that the P11-144 had a crankshaft/camshaft sensor recall - ours never got called back for this fix. But I've checked the signals reaching the ECU from both sensors and they look "sensible" (the way the FSM says they should).

I have no clue really - fuel pump, MAF, TPS, ECU, coil packs, crank/cam sensors...?
Our local independent garage (who service it) couldn't pin down any fault. They reckoned the plugs were basically fine, though one looked slightly differently coloured to the rest; however, the misfire has never felt like it was confined to a single cylinder.

My little OBD unit says the MAF and TPS outputs look sensible. The MAF was actually replaced a couple of years ago with a 2nd-hand unit from an Almera, so I did suspect it but like I say the readings look OK...

I also spent hours today pratting around with the 'scope again on the ECU connector, looking at the pulses from various pins (tacho, crankshaft, injectors, ignition) in the hope of learning what's wrong. (I could post pics if anyone thinks they'll help.)

The tacho pulses are the only clear problem I can see on the 'scope: most of the pulses are as they should be - long high with short low - but quite a few stay low for the whole pulse instead, with a pattern often present (but I can't make sense of what the pattern is telling me).

Another symptom that might be important: when accelerating, the problem is worst just after changing throttle setting. After maybe 2 or 3 seconds, it settles down significantly - not perfect but much less jumpy.
In fact, this is a wee bit like something else that has happened ever since the car was new: when pulling away from traffic lights etc., and flooring it in first gear, the car really doesn't pull for the first second or two, and then BOOM it goes like a rocket. This was reported to two separate Nissan dealers who said there was nothing wrong. Maybe it's normal or maybe it's an indication of some broken-ness...

Anyway, after remembering that the behaviour was worst just after changing throttle position, I looked at the ignition pulses just after taking the engine from idle to a fast tickover (like 3k), and saw something a little odd: some of the ignition pulses were much shorter than others. Mostly they were between 2 and 4 milliseconds long (much bigger variation than I expected) but the shortest ones were not much over half a millisecond... Not sure how long they should be (FSM doesn't say).

Sorry for the length (!) but if you made it this far I really appreciate you taking the time to read it ;-)



Replies:
Posted By: stonegrey
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 11:28pm
welcome to NPOCWave.

QG engines have been know to suffer chain stretch. if the juddering is around the 3500 - 4k rpm mark, this is when the vvl starts to kick in, and will cause what you are seeing.


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Posted By: James_friel
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 12:46am
Chain stretch is what it seems like, I have the same Problom with my car, and unless yOu get a brand new engine it's hard to knoW, you can fix yours, the kit is 200ish, if you take it to a Nissan garage they can check the timing for you

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Psn- jamesedmund
Twitter- suctiontires
Facebook- james Friel
00 P11-144 1.6 s


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 3:08am
Thanks very much guys!
Chain problems do sound hugely plausible. I will bung the 'scope back on in the morning and concentrate on comparing the POS and PHASE waveforms this time - that should prove it I guess.

200 quid doesn't sound too horrific - is the job doable for someone with half a clue and limited tools? :)
And where does one go to try and buy such a kit?



Posted By: stetec
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 8:47am
Yeah sounds exactly like the timing chain issue I had with an Almera.  Cost me about £140 for the kit from an Ebay store (very good quality) and paid a mechanic friend £100 to fit it.  Problem fixed.


Posted By: SteveB
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 10:00am
It's a shame the sensors can't be moved a bit to compensate for some chain wear.

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1997 2.0 SLX P11


Posted By: stonegrey
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by SteveB SteveB wrote:

It's a shame the sensors can't be moved a bit to compensate for some chain wear.


Brilliant ideaErmm.

if a cam chain has stretched, it needs replacing. end of.




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Posted By: SteveB
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by stonegrey stonegrey wrote:

Originally posted by SteveB SteveB wrote:

It's a shame the sensors can't be moved a bit to compensate for some chain wear.


Brilliant ideaErmm.

if a cam chain has stretched, it needs replacing. end of.




Um, no.  WHEN the cam chain wears/stretches (same thing) the chain tensioner takes up the slack to save the chain from needing replacement every 50,000m.  Eventually the chain tensioner runs out of adjustment which is when the chain needs replacing.  


-------------
1997 2.0 SLX P11


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 1:17am
So... the 'scope did indeed show some variation in the relative timings of the cam and crank sensors (less than I expected though). I guess this confirms the timing chain as the source of the problems...
Am currently asking the local garage to quote for the job (might source the parts from eBay mind you - thanks for that tip) as the FSM makes the job look well beyond my talents and toolkit.

Not certain the car's worth it... hmm. It also suffers from a wobble at speed when under power (but not coasting) which the local garage think means the diff is worn and which they reckon would need a recon gearbox to fix (for about a grand!).


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 11:56am
So... My local garage guys reckon the labour will set me back around £280, which is fairly ouchish but not totally forgetaboutit.
Thus I'm now figuring out which part to buy.

Kits with chain + guides are available out there (ballpark £120), and I nearly bought one.
But then I spotted kits with chain + guides + sprockets (cams + crank), and thought "uhoh, if the sprockets are worn too, I'll still have problems after replacing the chain".
Then, to really confuse me, I noticed that the chain kits which include sprockets say they are for the QG15DE and QG18DE, and don't mention the QG16DE. I'd be inclined to guess that anything that fits the 15 and 18 would fit the 16, but guesses like that sometimes work out badly :)

So, am asking for advice again please: should I be buying chain+guides or trying to find a QG16DE kit which has sprockets too?

Thanks! :)


Posted By: wickydude
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 12:23pm
Sprockets are different. See Nissan4u.com

1.8:
http://nissan4u.com/parts/primera/er_p11e/2000_2/type_54/engine_mechanical/cylinder_head_rocker_cover_camshaft_and_valve_mechanism/illustration_3/" rel="nofollow">

1.6:
http://nissan4u.com/parts/primera/er_p11e/2000_2/type_55/engine_mechanical/cylinder_head_rocker_cover_camshaft_and_valve_mechanism/illustration_1/" rel="nofollow">

Click on pictures to got to nissan4u.com. you can look up the part numbers there.

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Ex: Primera P12 1.9dCi Estate<b


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 2:59pm
Thanks for the pics - hadn't known about that website. It won't load properly for me right now, but will try again later.
Am really puzzled that the 1.6 is shown in your pics as having two separate chains... Weird?

But part differences aside, do you reckon it'd be necessary to do both sprockets and chain, or just chain?

ta ;)


Posted By: wickydude
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 4:27pm
If you ask me, I'd change both chain and sprockets if it's open anyway. That said, it also depends on how much the sprockets are and if any wear is visible on the teeth.
Others may have a different opinion

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Ex: Primera P12 1.9dCi Estate<b


Posted By: wickydude
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 4:34pm
Eeehm, isee that i pointed to the wrong engine. The qg16 has one chain.
Sorry about that
http://nissan4u.com/parts/primera/er_p11e/2001_4/type_72/engine_mechanical/cylinder_head_rocker_cover_camshaft_and_valve_mechanism/illustration_2/" rel="nofollow - http://nissan4u.com/parts/primera/er_p11e/2001_4/type_72/engine_mechanical/cylinder_head_rocker_cover_camshaft_and_valve_mechanism/illustration_2/

-------------
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Posted By: wickydude
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 4:38pm
Just looking on nissan4u.com again, it seems that the sprockets could be the same on the 1.6 and the 1.8 .
You'd better check with your exact model, as there is achoice in types.
If in doubt, you could always inquire at your local stealership... And then buy someplace else.

-------------
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Posted By: Kensai86
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 5:02pm
the nissan 4u pic is of a ga engine. twin chain is a give away


Posted By: wickydude
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Kensai86 Kensai86 wrote:

the nissan 4u pic is of a ga engine. twin chain is a give away


Yeah, shit happens if you want to do things too quick. The link in the latter post is to the other 1.6 the qg16

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Ex: Primera P12 1.9dCi Estate<b


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 5:03pm
Finally managed to load the website - seriously useful stuff.
Learned a couple of things today: if I'm not mistaken, the actual chain seems to be the same for all of the QG engines, but the camshaft sprockets are NOT the same for QG15DE and QG16DE, at least for a Primera QG16DE vs. an Almera QG15DE.
(Dunno why that is, but maybe the Almera doesn't have VTC? Actually, I'm not at all sure where the mechanical differences with VTC show up anyway...Confused)

Am now thinking of just ordering the chain+guides from Ebay, cos no kits with QG16DE sprockets seem to be showing up "out there". Hopefully the main problem is chain wear!

Thanks again for the help Smile


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:06pm
Hey all...
Hoping you can help - the garage is installing the timing chain for me as we speak.
BUT - they have discovered that various gaskets and O-rings need to be replaced, and these weren't in the kit. (It contained chain, guides, tensioner.)

They're trying to source 'em all right now, but they are drawing a blank on the four O-rings for the timing chain cover.
Does anyone have any tips for where these might be bought?

thanks!
Neil


Posted By: Renegade1127
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Neilski Neilski wrote:


They're trying to source 'em all right now, but they are drawing a blank on the four O-rings for the timing chain cover.
Does anyone have any tips for where these might be bought?

thanks!
Neil


You will probably have to buy a full gasket set.

There's at least one on eBay at the mo. Will cost you around £70 - £80 for the set.


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:59pm
Thanks for the info.
(Should I have spotted that, or the garage, or indeed should the kit have had 'em in it?)

Have looked on eBay; so far have only spotted something which looks like a gasket set for a 1.8l version. The bits I need might fit though I guess? :-S


Posted By: Renegade1127
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:24pm
Probably the safest way to go with this is to pay a visit to a Nissan dealer.

The QG16DE changed during the production run, so an early (jan 2000) has those 4 'O' rings, but the later (oct 2000) doesn't.

Go see 'The Man' and give them your VIN number and Reg.  They should be able to get the correct parts.



Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 9:59pm
Wow, the FSM doesn't mention anything about engine variants :-S
How did you come across that info?
Thanks for letting me know anyway.
In fact, the garage got back to me later this afternoon (while I thrashed about uselessly) to report that they had been in touch with Nissan and the right parts are now apparently on the way :-)
Fingers crossed the bill isn't going to cause heart failure...


Posted By: jericho7
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 9:46am
Hey, was it heart failure of expense then as you didn't post anything new? :)

I was just reading at this post as I got some power loss on my Nissan Primera P11 144, QG18DE currently, but only when I drive on highway with 5th gear at around 3500 RPM - around 140 km/h.

power loss just happen at this RPM then it goes normally when I speed up?

I was at Nissan garage already and they run all kind of diagnostic test and all readings were ok. There is also no Engine light and they can't figure it out until I got an error code there.

I am not sure this is timing chain problem or could it be?

In the past months I got some P0420 errors and at Nissan they told me the pre-cat would need to be replaced in short future. I haven't done that yet and the Engine Light stops popping P0420 error code lately.

Could my loss of power cause the pre-cat as well?

Spark plugs are new, gas filter I don't think would cause loss of power only at 3500 RPM in 5th gear?

I also noticed that for Primera P11 QG18DE enigine, the timing chain could be probably same for Nissan Sentra 1.8L QG18DE Engine as in US ebay these kits are like 65 GBP with postage + tax - still half price.. Any idea on this?

any feedback appreciated!


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 12:56pm
Hi...
Hmm, yeah, never got around to posting an update. It was an unexpectedly traumatic repair. After the seals & gaskets were located, we finally got the car back a few days later than expected. Same day in fact that we were due to drive 250 miles to a ferry... On the way the car developed a large plume of smoke out the back which wasn't immediately obvious to me cos it was dark. But after seeing it and checking the oil, and refilling the oil, and driving 50 miles further and again refilling the oil (2.5 litres used in 95 miles :-/) I got the AA to take us back home. Left it with the garage and went on hol in another car (helpful friend). Garage found that a cheap seal had failed and didn't charge us any extra for it (they probably felt guilty, and to be honest they probably deserved to feel that way).
What with buying the chain (130ish IIRC from eBay) and the original quote for the garage work (~ 400) + the extra cost of seals (70-80 IIRC) the whole damn thing ended up at roughly £600 which was a bit horrific. But at least it's hanging on for now. A CV joint is suspect at the moment in fact, but at least that bill's not likely to cause a nose-bleed.

Not sure if your symptoms could be due to chain issues. If I were you I'd want to be pretty certain before getting it done, as it's too pricey to do it just on the off-chance. If you have access to test equipment you could do what I did (oscilloscope) and check the relative timing of crank and cam pulses. It doesn't happen in lower gears? That would be weird. I can't recall what P0420 means.

Has the MAF been tested?


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 12:57pm
Darn, forgot to ask (can't seem to edit my own post ?!) how much mileage is on your car.


Posted By: wickydude
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by jericho7 jericho7 wrote:

Hey, was it heart failure of expense then as you didn't post anything new? :)

I was just reading at this post as I got some power loss on my Nissan Primera P11 144, QG18DE currently, but only when I drive on highway with 5th gear at around 3500 RPM - around 140 km/h.

power loss just happen at this RPM then it goes normally when I speed up?

I was at Nissan garage already and they run all kind of diagnostic test and all readings were ok. There is also no Engine light and they can't figure it out until I got an error code there.

I am not sure this is timing chain problem or could it be?

In the past months I got some P0420 errors and at Nissan they told me the pre-cat would need to be replaced in short future. I haven't done that yet and the Engine Light stops popping P0420 error code lately.

Could my loss of power cause the pre-cat as well?

Spark plugs are new, gas filter I don't think would cause loss of power only at 3500 RPM in 5th gear?

I also noticed that for Primera P11 QG18DE enigine, the timing chain could be probably same for Nissan Sentra 1.8L QG18DE Engine as in US ebay these kits are like 65 GBP with postage + tax - still half price.. Any idea on this?

any feedback appreciated!


Just to add my 0,02:
P0420 is indeed a warning that the cat is not working as it should. If the ceramic inside of the cat got damaged, it *could* mean that the exhaust is restricted, which in turn could give the problems you describe.
I'm not sure that this is it, maybe someone else knows other probable causes.

-------------
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Ex: Primera P12 1.9dCi Estate<b


Posted By: jericho7
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Neilski Neilski wrote:

Hi...
Hmm, yeah, never got around to posting an update. It was an unexpectedly traumatic repair. After the seals & gaskets were located, we finally got the car back a few days later than expected. Same day in fact that we were due to drive 250 miles to a ferry... On the way the car developed a large plume of smoke out the back which wasn't immediately obvious to me cos it was dark. But after seeing it and checking the oil, and refilling the oil, and driving 50 miles further and again refilling the oil (2.5 litres used in 95 miles :-/) I got the AA to take us back home. Left it with the garage and went on hol in another car (helpful friend). Garage found that a cheap seal had failed and didn't charge us any extra for it (they probably felt guilty, and to be honest they probably deserved to feel that way).
What with buying the chain (130ish IIRC from eBay) and the original quote for the garage work (~ 400) + the extra cost of seals (70-80 IIRC) the whole damn thing ended up at roughly £600 which was a bit horrific. But at least it's hanging on for now. A CV joint is suspect at the moment in fact, but at least that bill's not likely to cause a nose-bleed.

Not sure if your symptoms could be due to chain issues. If I were you I'd want to be pretty certain before getting it done, as it's too pricey to do it just on the off-chance. If you have access to test equipment you could do what I did (oscilloscope) and check the relative timing of crank and cam pulses. It doesn't happen in lower gears? That would be weird. I can't recall what P0420 means.

Has the MAF been tested?

Hey Neilski, ohhh, sorry to hear that, bad experiences you had there...

I just figured it out yesterday - concerning my car. I went to another Nissan garage where they were prepared to go to a test drive, while a mechanic told me immediately it is the MAF sensor 100%.

Before I went on ebay to order 100 EUR Bosch MAF sensor I went home and clean MAF with CNC MAF sensor cleaner + my Simota Air filter was pretty dirty from below with a lot of dust. I also cleaned that dust out and voila, Primera goes fast as a rocket again :))

My car got 111.000 km milage right now...

Now I will also remove my pre-cat and install sport manifold / header form OBX I just bought for same QG18DE machine for Nissan Sentra from US :). Hope the main cat will clean good enough for the MOT, otherwise I am screwed :))

but if I ain't try, will not know :))



Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 10:45am
Wow, you cleaned the MAF? Nice one!
I read in loads of places that the Bosch MAFs couldn't be successfully cleaned, and would just be wrecked by cleaning attempts.
The CNC MAF cleaner stuff is some sort of liquid I suppose?



Posted By: SteveB
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 8:02pm
It's CRC not CNC.  It's found fame on YouTube if you search.

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1997 2.0 SLX P11


Posted By: Neilski
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 9:40pm
Good to know.
I replaced my MAF with a second-hand one off Ebay years ago - still have the old one and have been meaning to try cleaning it sometime (cos I've got nothing to lose, despite the numerous warnings that the Bosch MAFs can't be cleaned...).


Posted By: jericho7
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 11:54am
ups, yes CRC MAF cleaner..

I've read that this is the only one good that should be used. I cleaned MAF 10.000 km before too and it worked good all the time.

I'll see now how it drives with cleaned MAF for the second time. I got feeling yesterday that it is doing some problems again, but there was no actually loss of power, maybe I just had some fears..

I also replaced the original manifold today and remove pre-cat, while installing sport header from OBX - for Nissan Sentra (QG18DE) and car drives different again, so I need to drive some more days if cleaning of the MAF was successful.

Anyone knows, if heat wrapping of the header / manifold is good as I see it's quite hot in the machine from the header when you stop driving. New header doesn't have an heat shield anymore now...

best




Posted By: jericho7
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 12:56pm
and this is how you can clean MAF - with a small brush (worked for an mechanic for 38 years):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX2Y44Np8VM

or here, this guy is cleaning MAF's with Alcohol and says it worked for the last 12 years :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjtY4lb6WP8

I'll try to re-clean it like that as there is still some dirt on my MAF that doesn't go off with just CRC spraying...

let's see  :) 



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